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Contest Winner

Monday, February 28, 2011  | 

42 comments  | 
Hey everybody, I know I should have done this a long time ago, but I kept forgetting, so I guess better late than never. :)  We didn't get very many contest entry's, but we did get a few.  Congratulations to the winner, Jessa M.!  I'll send out your certificate as soon as possible, Jessa.  For those of you who didn't win, we'll be having more, hopefully one with #53!  So keep watching!

42 comments:

Jessa ( February 28, 2011 at 5:08 PM )  

Cool! I guess my family is on a winning streak, so far in 2011 my Dad won a $800 guitar plus an amp, my Mom won a $75 purse, and even though there weren't a lot of entries I won this! Now I just need to win the contest at The Odyssey Scoop.

Tim B. ( February 28, 2011 at 7:45 PM )  

No Jessa! I want to win! LOL

Christian A. ( March 1, 2011 at 5:10 AM )  

No, I want to win! You guys don't have a chance! Oh wait, I haven't entered yet. And I'm not even sure if I will. ;)

P.S. @ Luke: I think you might be thinking of Marvin. He posted a picture of his family recently, and he is very tall, and I think that was what Brittini commented about. I am white, not black, so sorry if you got that picture in your head. ;D

Luke ( March 3, 2011 at 9:04 AM )  

@ Jessa: Wow! Wish I had that kind of luck. :)
@ Tim: lol :) seriously though, do you like Jenkin's books?
@ Christian: Really? I always assumed you were black because of your picture. :)

Christian A. ( March 3, 2011 at 1:35 PM )  

That isn't a black boy. It's a white boy with a mask on. That's funny that that's how you've imagined me though. Here's a link to what Marvin looks like: http://theaiofanslife.viviti.com/entries/general/more-on-me

That picture's probably why you thought I was black. I actually look fairly similar to the guy on my avatar beside my name, if he didn't have the mask on. I have dark brown hair and brown eyes. And I'm white! ;D

Tim B. ( March 4, 2011 at 5:35 AM )  

@Luke: I am pretty sure the only books I have read by Jenkins are the Left Behind Series. Other than that, I don't know.

Tim B. ( March 4, 2011 at 5:37 AM )  

@Christian: Oh wow! I thought you were black too. Whoops my mistake, your avatar looks African American to me. That's probably why I assumed you were.

Christian A. ( March 4, 2011 at 5:50 AM )  

Wow, that's weird. I wonder how many people think that? It's a white boy with a red mask on. You can go here (http://www.blogger.com/profile/16625052227002574731) to get a closer look.

Hey, I just had a thought. Are you black, Tim? Because I've always pictured you white, but it'd be a big surprise to find out that you're black.

Come to think of it, I don't know what FJ or OJ look like either, so they could be black too, for all I know. I always pictured Marvin white before he showed his picture, so you never know. :)

Tim B. ( March 4, 2011 at 7:20 AM )  

I am actually a white guy. Go to this link http://www.fullgospelholiness.com/albums/Pastor%20Appreciation%20Service%202010/slides/IMG_4272.html, to see what I look like. I'm the guy on the left. Also, I believe that FJ is white and if you go to the OBC website, you will find some pictures of the members.

Christian A. ( March 5, 2011 at 4:33 AM )  

Great! Now I don't have to create pictures in my head anymore. You look a lot like I imagined you to, and FJ looks almost exactly like what I imagined him to look like, funny enough. Thanks Tim!

Luke ( March 7, 2011 at 12:37 PM )  

You look a lot different from what I expected Tim. Is that your wife, girlfriend, or what?

Tim B. ( March 7, 2011 at 1:13 PM )  

That's my fiance. We haven't gotten married yet.

Jessa ( March 8, 2011 at 4:54 PM )  

It is pretty wierd to imagine someone and then find out what they look like.

Luke ( March 8, 2011 at 5:56 PM )  

@ Tim: Oh, OK cool. When are you getting married?
@ Jessa: Yeah I know!

Tim B. ( March 9, 2011 at 8:26 AM )  

@ Luke: We aren't sure yet, we have not set a date as of yet.
@ Jessa: I know what you mean. You can imagine my surpise when I found out that Christian isn't black. Based on his picture, I always imagined him like that.

Luke ( March 9, 2011 at 8:41 AM )  

OK. Do you live close to Franklin/Indianapolis

Tim B. ( March 9, 2011 at 8:36 PM )  

I live about an hour and a half away from Indianapolis. Not going to say what town but its about 40 mins from Richmond.

Luke ( March 9, 2011 at 8:56 PM )  

OK. Have you ever been to IHC in Dayton OH?

Tim B. ( March 10, 2011 at 8:02 AM )  

I don't know if I have ever heard of it. What is it?

Christian A. ( March 11, 2011 at 2:02 PM )  

It's the Interstate Holiness Conference. (I looked it up on Google ;D) I haven't heard of it either, but that's probably because I don't have anything to do with the holiness movement.

BTW, that's not to say that I'm against holiness. I know that the Bible says in 1 Peter that we are to be holy as God is holy. So I believe that as Christians we are to be walking in the good works God prepared in advance for us to do. (Ephesians 2:10) And we're to be growing in grace, daily taking up our cross and following Jesus, sacrificing for His sake and evangelizing the lost whenever we get the chance. I'm not saying I'm great at doing all those things, but I know that's what I believe. My church just doesn't identify itself with the Holiness movement. And I don't agree with a few of the things you guys believe. But you seem to be pretty much right about the essentials, so I think I can call you guys brothers. :)

P.S. @ Luke or Tim: What is your opinion about what Jesus says in John 6:39 and 10:28-30?

Luke ( March 11, 2011 at 10:19 PM )  

Actually its Interchurch Holiness Convention. :) It's a big convention every April in Oh.

Christian A. ( March 12, 2011 at 7:55 AM )  

Oh yeah, sorry, I wrote it wrong. It said it was in Dayton, which is a town relatively close to where I live in the Akron area.

Brittini ( March 12, 2011 at 11:43 AM )  

@ Christian And SISTERS LOL

Luke ( March 13, 2011 at 7:24 PM )  

@ christian: what do those verses say?

Tim B. ( March 14, 2011 at 6:55 AM )  

Ok I will give you my thoughts about it. In verse 6:38-40 it says "38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

I believe this passage is talking about the resurrection when the Lord comes to catch away his bride. When it says in verse 39 that He will lose nothing, Jesus was refering to those that had died in Christ will not be lost but will rise again with Him on that resurrection day.

Regarding the other passage, verses 28-30 says, "28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one"

This portion of scripture lets us know that there is nobody (friends, family, strangers) can take us out of the hand of God. However, that does not keep them from tempting us and it is up to us whether or not we will resist that temptation or not. As 2 Peter 2:20-22 states if we don't resist that temptation, after we have come to know our Lord as our personal Savior, our latter end is worse than the first. It even goes so far as to say that we would have been better off had we not known the truth than to turn away from our salvation. I am glad, though that God gives us power over the flesh and the devil, but if we don't rely on God, we can fall from His grace and backslide. That is my feelings on those passages.

Christian A. ( March 14, 2011 at 6:56 AM )  

Well you could look them up! ;) But in case you can't:

John 6:37-39: 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 10:28-30: 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

John 17:12b:
None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

I was just wondering how you reconcile that to your belief that people can lose their salvation.

Christian A. ( March 15, 2011 at 9:15 AM )  

@ Tim: Do you believe that Jesus died only for those whom He knew would be saved, or do you believe that he died for everyone?

Tim B. ( March 15, 2011 at 12:15 PM )  

I believe that he died for every single person on this earth. These scriptures are the reason why I believe this: (Note, this is all in the King James Version) Revelation 22:7, Luke 19:10, John 3:16-17 (16 says whosoever and 17 says that the world through Him might be saved), John 10:9 (any man), Romans 10:13 (For whosoever), I Timothy 2:4 (all men). I hope this helps you understand why I believe this way.

Luke ( March 15, 2011 at 2:05 PM )  

I'll look em up and research and get back to you. :)

Christian A. ( March 16, 2011 at 5:36 AM )  

@ Tim: Yes, I definitely understand why you believe the way you do. But I've heard from pastors who study the Greek and Hebrew of those types of passages say that when Paul or any of the other NT writers uses the words "all men" or "world" he uses them because most of the time he was writing things that Gentiles would read. They had always believed that salvation was only for the Jews, but Paul wanted to show them that now all men had the chance to be saved.

Just because all men are able to be saved doesn't mean that all will be saved. Because God is omniscient, even if you don't believe in election, it's obvious that He knows who He would save and who He wouldn't. Saving is a work of the Holy Spirit, not because of righteous works we have done, so wouldn't you think God would know who He was going to save?

Therefore, why would Jesus die and be punished with God's wrath for those whom He knew wouldn't be saved? Was one single drop of Jesus' blood shed in vain?!

And here's the thing that totally convinces me: If Jesus died for all men who ever lived, what about the Old Testament wicked who died in their sins, condemned as depraved? Are you going to say that Jesus died for even those in Hell already? Jesus obviously didn't die for "all men" the way you interpret the phrase.

Here's the lyrics to a song that I like that explains the situation quite well:

Here’s a controversial subject that tends to divide.
For years it’s had Christians lining up on both sides.
By God’s grace, I’ll address this without pride.
The question concerns those for whom Christ died.
Was He trying to save everybody worldwide?
Was He trying to make the entire world His Bride?
Does man’s unbelief keep the Savior’s hands tied?
Biblically, each of these must be denied.
It’s true, Jesus gave up His life for His Bride.
But His Bride is the elect, to whom His death is applied.
If on judgment day, you see that you can’t hide,
and because of your sin, God’s wrath on you abides,
And hell is the place you eternally reside,
That means your wrath from God hasn’t been satisfied.
But we believe His mission was accomplished when He die.
But how the cross relates to those in hell?
Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried.

Verse 2

Father, Son and Spirit: three and yet one
Working as a unit to get things done.
Our salvation began in eternity past.
God certainly has to bring all His purpose to pass.
A triune, eternal bond no one could ever sever.
When it comes to the church, look how they work together.
The Father foreknew first, the Son came to earth
To die- the Holy Spirit gives the new birth.
The Father elects them, the Son pays their debt and protects them.
The Spirit is the One who resurrects them.
The Father chooses them, the Son gets bruised for them,
The Spirit renews them and produces fruit in them.
Everybody’s not elect, the Father decides.
And it’s only the elect in whom the Spirit resides.
The Father and the Spirit- completely unified
But when it comes to Christ and those in hell?
Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried

Verse 3

My third and final verse- here’s the situation
Just a couple more things for your consideration:
If saving everybody was why Christ came in history,
With so many in hell, we’d have to say He failed miserably.
So many think He only came to make it possible.
Let’s follow this solution to a conclusion that’s logical.
What about those who were already in the grave?
The Old Testament wicked- condemned as depraved
Did He die for them? C’mon, behave!
But worst of all, you’re saying the cross by itself doesn’t save!
That we must do something to give the cross its power!
That means, at the end of the day, the glory’s ours!
That man-centered thinking is not recommended.
The cross will save all for whom it was intended,
Because for the elect, God’s wrath was satisfied.
But still, when it comes to those in hell,
Well, they be saying:

Lord knows He tried.

Christian A. ( March 16, 2011 at 5:36 AM )  

Sorry, there's quite a bit about election in there, but I'll have to convince you of that another time, if you're not convinced. That song is from a Reformed Rapper named Shai Linne. Does that show you that not all rap is devil music? :D

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I hope you'll think about it. But always go back to the Bible. Nothing else should come first. If what I'm saying really doesn't align with Scripture, I want to know, so please let me know.

Tim B. ( March 16, 2011 at 7:53 AM )  

@Christian: I am going to try to answer all of your questions (Note, all scripture verses are KJV)

First off, I do agree with you in your first paragraph that Paul was mainly writing to gentiles when he refers to all people, but he didn't just write solely to them. As stated in Acts 10:15 Paul was to bear Christ's name to the gentiles, kings, and Jews. ( Acts 13-15 also has some more examples)

I agree with your assessment that just because all men have the ability to be saved not all will choose to be saved. I also agree that God is omniscient and He does know who will choose to be saved and who will refuse to be saved BUT because of His love and mercy, He gives everyone a chance to believe. This is why John 3:16-17 are so important. It lets us know that Christ came for all people.

Why would Jesus die for those whom He knew would reject Him? In Romans 5:5-9 it says "[5]And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
[6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
[7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him"
So in essence, it is Jesus's love for mankind, both righteous and ungodly, that explains why He died for those who would even reject Him. So, I believe that Christ didn't "fail miserably" when He died for all the sins of mankind, I believe He successfully laid down His life and gave all those who choose to follow Him the hope of eternal life! Praise God for that hope!

Tim B. ( March 16, 2011 at 8:48 AM )  

OK, now for the lengthiest part of my answers. Jesus could not have died for all of those who had already died, so in that sense Christ didn't die for all men, however, my interpretation of all men was those who lived in Christ's day all the way up to the days we live in now. The people in the old Testament lived under what most scholars call the Dispensation of the Law. As I am sure you know, the law of Moses was given before the days of Christ. Multiple NT writers refer to this (Peter, Stephen and Paul to name a few) when they start explaining the reasons for why Jesus was the Messiah. So, up to the time of Christ, the children of Israel were to follow the ways of the Law of Moses (which was given to him by God on Mt. Sinai in Exodus). This meant that they had to follow several sacrifices each year as the atonement for thier sins. In Hebrews 9:22 it says "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood, and without shedding of blood is no remission." So we see that in the OT, God was not satified unless the blood of a spotless lamb was given as an atonement for the people's sins. Even gentiles who wanted to follow Jehovah God were to follow this law (i.e. Ruth the Moabitess, Rahab the Harlot to name a few). These followed the law and everything that was required of the Jews to serve the Lord was required of them as well. So, up until the day of Jesus's birth, this is what the children of Israel had to do. When Jesus died on the cross and became the eternal spotless lamb, He did away with that dispensation of the law and established what scholars call the Grace Dispensation. Meaning we do not have to go to a priest and have him slaughter an animal for our remission because Jesus Christ is now our Great High Priest! So, in essence, the people who rejected following God's Law, would have rejected Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. So, they essentially did reject Christ when they rejected the law because God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are seperate but in unity. Thank you for reading this and I hope it helps you. Let me know if you have any other questions.

@Luke: Thanks for letting me answer Christian's questions. I know this is an Odyssey site and not a theological site so if you want us to stop just say the word. I know I will continue to answer any question presented to me about my beliefs but if you would rather us stick with Odyssey related items just let me know and I will, as Eugene would say, Cease and desist.

Christian A. ( March 16, 2011 at 10:05 AM )  

@ Tim: Alright. I was hoping you might give in and see that I'm right, but I was pretty sure that it wouldn't be that easy. You mostly gave the responses I expected. I'm going to try to continue to defend what I believe:

In my first paragraph, I didn't mean that "all men" referred to Gentiles, but that when Paul said that to the Gentiles to whom he was first and foremostly writing, he meant that because of Jesus, now even the Gentiles can be saved. All men refers to "every people, language, tongue, and nation." Sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

I do not believe that we choose to be saved. I believe in total depravity as put forward in Romans 3 (and also Psalm 14) which says that no one seeks God, no one is good, there is none righteous. Therefore, we can't do anything to get ourselves saved. That would mean that the credit for our salvation would partially go to us. No, I believe that it is only by God's grace that we are saved, through faith. And we can't even have faith by ourselves; the Holy Spirit works faith in us, so that we are in a place to be saved. When God gives us faith by His grace (which we don't deserve in the least bit), we are in a place to believe the decrees and claims of God as put forth in Scripture, and then we act on that by repenting of our sin, and trusting in the finished work of Christ on the cross for salvation. We don't repent of our own power, but by the power of the Holy Spirit. God then regenerates us (gives us new birth), and we are continually sanctified (made holy, set apart from the world), and given the ability to live for God, taking up our crosses daily and following in Christ's footsteps.

Okay...now that I've gotten that cleared up, I also believe that God does save because of His mercy. If He wasn't merciful, Adam and Eve would have been in Hell at the fall. So it is only by His wonderful mercy and grace that we live and are worked in by the Holy Spirit to receive salvation. Christ did, in a sense, come to make salvation possible, but only for those whom the Father chose to save. All the rest would never be saved, so He did not die for them. I understand your realm of thinking, but once you get this, it makes sense. God knew who would be His and who wouldn't. He knew who would reject the salvation message, and who would act on it (by His grace). Therefore, those individuals were who Jesus received punishment on behalf of. The fact that billions are in Hell and will go to Hell proves that Jesus didn't suffer for them! Because Hell is the wrath of God, and we, as Christians, have had that wrath satisfied because of Christ!

Christian A. ( March 16, 2011 at 10:06 AM )  

I do believe what Romans 5 says. Christ did die for the ungodly; He did die for us while we were still sinners. But he didn't die for the righteous. We don't see that anywhere in the Bible. We are the ungodly! We are sinners! We are miserable wretches in the eyes of God! "Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!"

If Christ came to die for unbelievers, and they reject his death and sufferings, then He did fail. He came to save His people from their sins. Those in Hell haven't been saved from their sin. Therefore Christ didn't die for them!

Now on to your second comment: I believe Christ did die for the OT believers. He didn't die for the OT wicked, but He did suffer for those who believed in the Messiah to come. How else could they have gotten to heaven? Even if all of their sacrifices had covered over every single sin they ever committed on this earth, they still have the problem of original sin. "In sin my mother conceived me." We are all born sinners before we even sin, as a result of the fall. No animal blood could ever cover over that! We are all born with sin in our "account." When Jesus lived a perfect life, and then God "made Him Who had no sin to be sin for us," an exchange was made. God takes Jesus' righteousness, and through faith, He credits it into the Christian's "account". This is imputation, The Great Exchange. Our sin for Christ's righteousness. Christ gets punished for all the sins that every believer would ever commit, and we are treated as if we had lived the spotless, perfect life that Christ did.

I do believe that Christ's death did away with sacrifices, and that was because He was the perfect Lamb, slain for our sin. In the Old Testament, when the Jews demonstrated faith in the Messiah to come, Whom they knew would pay for their sin, God justified them. As it says in Romans 4, "Abraham believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness." Therefore, when Jesus died, He officially justified the OT saints, and they were admitted into heaven, because their sins had been paid for.

I personally believe, as found in the parable in Luke 16, that the OT saints were kept in "paradise" until Jesus justified them, because they couldn't enter heaven to be in God's perfect presence until Jesus paid their ransom. But that is a weak part of my theology, and I don't have much Scripture to back it up, so I'd appreciate it if we don't get into an argument about that.

Thanks for the ability to have a debate! I never get this opportunity anywhere else to defend what exactly it is that I believe, because I don't know any people like you. So thank you, it's helped me a lot, and hopefully what I said will help you. :)

Christian A. ( March 16, 2011 at 10:07 AM )  

@ Luke: Seriously, if you don't want us to do this anymore, it's fine with me. But thank you for being so kind as to let us do it so far. As I said, this is the only place I get to have debates like this, and they're really helpful to me. Thanks for letting us use your comments! But say the word, and I'll stop. :)

Tim B. ( March 16, 2011 at 11:24 AM )  

@ Christian: Well I certainly don't see things the way you see it that's for sure. I must say you are quite the debater. However, I know I probably won't change your mind just like I know you won't change my mind. You have given me a greater understanding on why you believe the way you do and I too am grateful for the chance to dabate. It has helped me study more and to learn how to correctly give my beliefs in a non-violent way. I thank you that through this debate that you have not gotten hot-headed like some people I have seen do on other sites. I still don't see things the way you see it and I never will but at least I know a little bit more about your beliefs. Thanks!

Christian A. ( March 16, 2011 at 12:22 PM )  

I'm very glad I could help. I was hoping that that was what I'd accomplish, if nothing else. I too am glad for your non-hot-headedness, so thank you too. And you've also helped me better learn what you believe.

P.S. Just for further reference, would you label yourself as an Arminian? Or would you label yourself as something else? From what I know about Arminians, I think that's what you are, but I'm not sure. I'm a Calvinist, a Reformed Baptist to be specific. If you want to see what that specifically means, and read my church confession and beliefs, you can go to www.heritagerbc.com.

Again, thanks for the debate!

Tim B. ( March 17, 2011 at 5:24 AM )  

I am Free Pentecostal Holiness. You can go to this website www.holinessmessenger.com to find out more about our movement. It has a newsletter, pictures, music and even a site with an online radio station that plays music from across our movement. Feel free to check it out. The webmaster is a friend of mine.

Luke ( March 17, 2011 at 12:14 PM )  

No, I don't mind at all if we debate about stuff. I think it's kind of fun :) Do you want me to answer your question, still, about those verses, Christian?

Christian A. ( March 18, 2011 at 9:16 AM )  

If you want to. I think Tim pretty much showed me what you guys believe about them, but if you want to throw in what it is that you specifically think about them, that's fine. I'd appreciate it.

Luke ( March 24, 2011 at 10:41 AM )  

Well, I'd probably agree with what Tim said, so I won't do a big long comment with Bible verses and stuff. But, I will stick to what I said. People can backslide and become sinners after they have been saved. In fact I know of a Holiness preacher who did, but, Thank God, was at a campmeeting 1 or 2 years and got saved. BTW: Do you believe in drinking?

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